美国国家公共电台 NPR For The Venezuelan Opposition, Protests Are 'Like A War'

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AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

Venezuela's ongoing¹ political and economic crisis has taken a toll² on daily life there.

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CARLOS: I cannot find basic food - I mean no rice, no chicken. Fruits are very expensive. So what has really shocked me is that this past year, you can see in every street of the city, there is somebody in the garbage looking for food.

CORNISH: That's Carlos, a protester we reached in Caracas, speaking about the food shortages in the country. There are nearly daily demonstrations³ now against the rule of Venezuela's president, Nicolas Maduro. To learn why and what the U.S. is doing about it, we turn to Shannon O'Neil. She's a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. And she began by describing the Venezuelans who still support President Maduro.

SHANNON O'NEIL: We see somewhere between 20 and 25 percent of the population still supports him. Many of these people are from the lower socioeconomic classes, people who have been very poor, that were treated poorly before Chavez. And then Maduro, who's his successor, came in. And many of these people are also people who are getting things from the government. So they're getting baskets of food and the like to stave off the hunger facing so many people. So there is this base of support that we have seen it eroding⁴ as the crisis gets worse.

CORNISH: So even though there's a black market in food - right? - there're shortages - you're saying some people are still getting access.

O'NEIL: Well, the government actually has developed a whole program to deliver baskets of foods to families. And there are lots of allegations that they send these to their loyal supporters and not to those who are within the opposition⁵. There's a whole effort - it's run by Venezuela's military - to then provide food - so even more intervention⁶ in the economy by the state on this very basic level.

CORNISH: You've described Maduro's government as a long-running train wreck⁷ in part because of legacy⁸ problems inherited from the one before it. So can you just give us a sense of the ways, like, kind of the socialist⁹ policies of this government have led to the problems we see now?

O'NEIL: Venezuela's big problems come from the change in the economy. And we've seen over the last almost 20 years systematically¹⁰ undermining the use of the market. Venezuela has moved from a country that produced many things to one that today produces only oil. And it is now a highly indebted country. So when oil prices collapsed¹² a few years ago, that's how we got this economic crisis.

CORNISH: So we know the opposition wants humanitarian¹³ aid. And they want the reinstatement of the country's congress which Maduro invalidated right after his opponents won a majority there. But what's his response? What does he have in mind instead?

O'NEIL: Well, Nicolas Maduro has responded to this by spurning¹⁴ the dialogue with the opposition and also now pushing for a constituent¹⁵ assembly. And this would change the politics within Venezuela. It would bring in a new body made up of all types of Venezuelans but mostly his supporters. And it would annul¹⁶ the national assembly, the legislative¹⁷ body. So we would see the opposition pushed out of any of those bodies that actually govern Venezuela.

CORNISH: What, if anything, has the U.S. done about any of this? What's our policy towards Venezuela?

O'NEIL: The United States has condemned¹⁸ the things that are going on there. It has reached out to other countries in the region to try to bring together a coalition¹⁹ to push for change in Venezuela. And the United States has also put targeted sanctions on individuals in Venezuela that are accused of corruption²⁰, of human rights abuses.

But the United States, too, as we've seen in the past with Venezuela - if the United States goes it alone in pushing Venezuela, it often backfires and gives Maduro or, before him, Chavez a reason to say, look; the imperial bully²¹ is pushing us - and actually builds up their support.

CORNISH: We actually have an example of that. This is the response from Nicolas Maduro in a televised speech last month he directed at Donald Trump²².

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NICOLAS MADURO: (Speaking Spanish).

CORNISH: So translation there - "go home Donald Trump, enough interventionism."

O'NEIL: Exactly. And if you can blame the problems of Venezuela today on the United States, it serves him well.

CORNISH: Is there concern that this government one way or another will collapse¹¹?

O'NEIL: There is a hope among some that this government will move on and transition out. But there is a concern that there will be a collapse and one that could lead to further economic hardship. But it also could lead to a refugee crisis within the hemisphere. And we've already seen tens of thousands of Venezuelans fleeing to neighboring countries. And there's a worry that you could see those levels increase dramatically if Venezuela and if the government collapsed.

CORNISH: Shannon O'Neil is senior fellow for Latin American studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you for speaking with us.

O'NEIL: Thank you for having me.