美国国家公共电台 NPR Democrats Didn't Cave On Deal To Reopen Government, Sen. Jones Says

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STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Alabama Senator Doug Jones is in our studios. He's the Democrats² who just won a special election in a deep red state. He had hardly arrived here in Washington when disputes over spending and immigration led to a brief government shutdown. Jones and other Democrats voted to end it on Monday in exchange for a promise that the Senate will at least consider protecting immigrants brought to the country illegally as children.

Senator, good morning.

DOUG JONES: Good morning, Steve.

INSKEEP: What do you say to Democrats who think that your side caved in here?

JONES: Oh, I don't think they caved in at all. I mean, you know, look - they - you make a point. I think that was important. I had a little bit different equation. If you recall, I voted to keep the government open in...

INSKEEP: Right.

JONES: ...The first vote. But, you know, I think that the way the Senate has been operating, in which everything is attached to some kind of spending bill - and the Senate - it hasn't been for some time the kind of deliberative body that it's supposed to be, where you have legislation, you come to the floor of the Senate and you debate it. And every - you know, all sides have an equal opportunity to put something on the floor, talk about it, debate it and then hopefully pass something. To be able to do that, I think, with the DACA and DREAMers and a little bit broader immigration - not necessarily the broad piece of reform - I think that was a major breakthrough. It hadn't happened in months, if not a couple of years.

INSKEEP: That's what Democrats did get, was a commitment that the Senate would at least take up legislation...

JONES: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...To protect DACA recipients³. Do you believe that you'll have a fair shot?

JONES: I think so, absolutely. You know, I think one of the biggest issues that the Senate faced this past weekend was one of trust. And that - it was a huge hurdle⁴, and it was distrust on both sides.

INSKEEP: Well, this is Mitch McConnell saying, trust me. I'm going to bring it up.

JONES: Well, that's right.

INSKEEP: Do you trust him?

JONES: And there were a lot of people that did not. There were also people on the other side that didn't trust Democrats. You know, I think this was a big breakthrough because you had a bipartisan group of senators, that actually grew in number over the course of the weekend, that said, we've got to get past this. We've got to put our cards on the table. And we've got to trust each other to do what the Senate does best - and that's deliberate.

INSKEEP: So the Senate takes this up. Maybe it gets 60 votes. Maybe it becomes law and then goes to the House where lawmakers don't seem that inclined to consider it at all.

JONES: Well, I think if the Senate can come up with a bill that is 60 votes, I think there will be a lot of pressure on the White House and the House to pass something. We have another deadline of March 5 coming up, in which there are going to be people starting to be deported⁵. That is also, I think, a driving factor to get something done.

INSKEEP: Senator, I want to remind people you're a red-state Democrat¹. Your seat was previously⁶ held by Attorney General Jeff Sessions...

JONES: Right.

INSKEEP: ...Who is a hard-liner on immigration. But you're both representing the same electorate⁷. How different, if at all, is your approach to immigration?

JONES: Well, I think my approach is going to be a lot different than Senator Sessions'. There's no question about that. I am going to try to work to try to find some agreement to go forward. I think it's important that we work to try to give the DACA kids - the DREAMers an opportunity to stay in this country like they have. It's the only country they have ever known.

I understand some of the arguments on the other side. I know - every Democrat wants to increase border security. I think there is a bipartisan consensus⁸ with that. The devil is always in the details. But I think that there's a way that we can go forward. With this deadline looming⁹ up, I just don't think you're going to want to see the videos of these kids. There are teachers - there are people in the military being deported. And I think there will be the right give and take.

INSKEEP: DACA's a tiny slice of this. We're talking about 11 million people in the United States illegally. You favor a path to citizenship¹⁰ for them?

JONES: No, I don't think we're going to get there on this right now. I think...

INSKEEP: But at any point in the near future?

JONES: Yeah, I don't know. I think we have to see. I think a broader immigration reform package is going to be down the road. I think we need to address some of the issues at hand right now - the issues of the DACA kids and the issue of the border security right now. That's the two most important things that are on the table. Let's get those on the table, find common ground the way we need to and then we - you know, once you can find common ground, Steve, you can find it on other issues.

INSKEEP: Senator, lots of people have noted¹¹ that the Republican Party has moved right on immigration. We're reporting on that, in fact, in this very program, the evolution of the Republican Party over decades. But some people have noted that the Democratic Party has shifted, too. Do you think that your party has moved left on immigration in recent years?

JONES: No, I don't think so. I think you have people in the party with diverse views. There's no question about that. And some are probably more left than more right. What I think the people in the Democratic Party are doing - they want to find a way for these kids to stay here. They want to find a way that we can come up with some kind of comprehensive reform.

INSKEEP: But I'm just thinking - Peter Beinart of The Atlantic wrote a few months ago that, a decade ago, you could find a liberal like Paul Krugman writing explicitly¹² that there are economic costs to immigration. The benefits - there are benefits, too, but they might not be so great. Is it hard for Democrats to acknowledge that now?

JONES: No, I think - you know, look, I think things have changed. We're a more diverse country than we were. I think people evolve in their views as the country changes, as circumstances changes. I think that that's appropriate. So what I really want to do is to try to let this bipartisan group of senators do their work.

INSKEEP: Senator, pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much.

JONES: Awesome¹³, Steve. Thanks for having me.

INSKEEP: Doug Jones, Democratic senator from Alabama.