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美国国家公共电台 NPR Free To Speak, Ex-CIA Chief John Brennan Takes On Trump

时间:2018-05-02 02:49:35

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ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

These days, John Brennan is a private citizen free to speak his mind as long as he doesn't venture into any classified intelligence. Brennan ran the CIA until the stroke of noon on the day Donald Trump1 was sworn into office. Since then, Brennan has made a point of attacking the president, and that's one of several things our colleague Mary Louise Kelly asked about when she sat down with Brennan here in our studios this morning. They also talked about Iran and Russia. And as historic talks begin between North and South Korea, they discuss the prospects3 for war or peace on the Peninsula.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, BYLINE4: John Brennan, welcome.

JOHN BRENNAN: Thank you so much, Mary Louise.

KELLY: Thank you for coming in. Let me start with North Korea. Last October, you put the chances of armed conflict with North Korea at 25 percent. And I'm curious where you would put them today.

BRENNAN: Well, I was asked whether I thought war was likely or a conflict likely, and I said, well, it may be as high as 20 or 30 percent. And I think that is too high given the potential for an escalatory cycle that could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of people. I am glad that the rhetorical broadsides that were going back and forth5 between Pyongyang and Washington have calmed down. I am pleased that there are some direct discussions taking place now between the United States and North Korea. I think that's good. But whether or not Kim Jong Un will agree to dismantle6 his nuclear weapons capability7 is a very different question.

KELLY: A big, open question.

BRENNAN: Yes.

KELLY: So it sounds as though you're relieved things are a little bit calmer.

BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

KELLY: You would - do you want to put...

BRENNAN: I would lower those risk right now.

KELLY: You would lower those numbers a little bit.

BRENNAN: Yes, right, exactly.

KELLY: Does that mean that the Trump approach is bearing some fruit?

BRENNAN: Well, I do believe there has been some questions in Pyongyang about whether or not Mr. Trump might be - (laughter) I don't want to say foolish enough - but actually to initiate8 a military conflict that could lead to the deaths of, again, hundreds of thousands of people. So I think...

KELLY: The saber-rattling...

BRENNAN: Yeah, the saber-rattling.

KELLY: ...was heard.

BRENNAN: So I think for many years, North Korea believed that the United States was unwilling9 to engage in any type of military confrontation10 with North Korea, which I think motivated North Korea to continue along this path. So I take issue with how Mr. Trump went about this policy, but...

KELLY: The name calling - is that what you're objecting to?

BRENNAN: The name calling, yes. I think it's certainly beneath the dignity of a president of the United States. But I think having a hard position and a rather resolute11 position against North Korea is an appropriate one.

KELLY: As you well know, North Korea has a documented history of cheating on disarmament deals, of concealing12 illicit13 weapons programs. If the U.S. and North Korea can agree to some sort of deal, are you confident that U.S. intelligence would know if North Korea cheated on it?

BRENNAN: Well, I don't think anybody can say that they have total confidence that we would know everything that's going on in North Korea. But if I use the example of Iran - when I look at the recent Iranian nuclear agreement, I have great confidence that if they were to restart a nuclear weapons program, that we the United States would know about it because of the regime that's been put in place.

But as you correctly said, they have cheated in the past. They have violated agreements in the past. That's why I think we have to have a very strong verification program in place that would give us the confidence that they're not pursuing these nuclear activities.

KELLY: Iran and the future of the nuclear deal there - you have in past said that tearing it up would be - I'll use your words - the height of folly14. The latest tack2 by the Trump administration appears to be maybe not to tear it up. Maybe the U.S. can stay in the Iran deal if some kind of supplemental agreement is negotiated. Does that reassure15 you in any way?

BRENNAN: (Laughter) Well, Mr. Trump, when he talks about the Iran nuclear deal - first of all, he speaks in hyperbole. You know, we got nothing for it. It was the worst deal ever. And that is not the case. We got a lot for it. There are issues related to its belying16 activities - its ballistic missile program. And those things I think can be addressed and discussed. But that doesn't mean it should come at the expense of tearing up that agreement because that would send an awful signal to the Iranian people that you can't trust the Americans' word. It would send an awful signal also I think to North Korea.

KELLY: What is wrong, though, with the Trump administration trying to fashion some sort of supplemental agreement that would make it more favorable to U.S. terms?

BRENNAN: Well, that's fine. But that's not what they were saying. That's not what Mr. Trump has been saying.

KELLY: It's what they're saying now.

BRENNAN: Well, now that's what they're doing, right. But to say that, you know, we're going to tear up that deal 'cause it was the worst ever - that's wrong. What they should do is build upon that. Build out from it.

KELLY: We on NPR this week interviewed a senior State Department official. This is Brian Hook. He's one of the people who's talking to the Europeans - European allies about how this might play out. And he said, look; the nuclear deal was never a binding17 treaty. There are no signatures on it. It was a political commitment by an administration that no longer holds political power.

BRENNAN: (Laughter) Yes, but it was a commitment by a U.S. administration along with many other signatories to it. And so that, although it's not a signed treaty - you know, there are a lot of things that the United States has committed to internationally that don't have a signed treaty that undergird them. So I do think that the U.S. word - it really needs to be maintained. You know, take politics out of this. And that's what Mr. Trump is doing. He continues to denounce the things that, you know, happened before him. Everything seemed to be broken and wrong and misguided before Mr. Trump took the Oval Office. That's absolutely BS.

KELLY: Let me turn you now to Russia and to a comment, Director Brennan, that you made on TV about President Trump's relationship with Russia and Vladimir Putin. This was you speaking in March on MSNBC.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

BRENNAN: I think he's afraid of the president of Russia.

WILLIE GEIST: Why?

BRENNAN: Well, I think one can speculate as to why - that the Russians may have something on him personally, that they could always roll out and make his life more difficult.

KELLY: John Brennan, do the Russians have something on Trump?

BRENNAN: I don't know, but what my point...

KELLY: What did you base that on then?

BRENNAN: No, my - well, I was asked a question, and I responded. Why is he seemingly so afraid of Mr. Putin, and why will he not take a more forceful position? Because...

KELLY: But you have no direct information that suggests that they do.

BRENNAN: I'm not going to get into what I may have known or not known while I was the CIA director. I just am looking at his performance since he has become president of the United States. And the, in some respects, fawning18 attitude toward Vladimir Putin while he speaks with such denigration19 about his fellow Americans, I just - it's hard to understand. And so is he afraid that Mr. Putin might have something on him - maybe. I don't know. But only Mr. Trump knows what he might be vulnerable to. I don't know.

KELLY: But is it responsible given your past position - your very recently past position as director of the Central Intelligence Agency to speculate and then not put forward evidence to support that in any way?

BRENNAN: Well, that's exactly what speculation20 is. It's because you don't have information. And I said, one can speculate.

KELLY: But people hear it coming from you and assume you know things that maybe I or an ordinary civilian21 wouldn't.

BRENNAN: Well, I'm an ordinary civilian now. I'm a private citizen, and I'm speaking out. I speak out forcefully.

KELLY: But you had access to the intelligence right up through the beginning of last year, January, 2017.

BRENNAN: That's correct.

KELLY: You saw the salacious dossier, the Steele dossier, that laid out all kinds of claims about President Trump and inappropriate behavior and Russia.

BRENNAN: Yes, I saw that. But I certainly was not a person who either gathered that information or did any, you know, review of the validity of that information. But again, when I'm asked questions as to why - and trying to explain why Mr. Trump deals with Mr. Putin the way he does, you know, I will speak my mind. And I made it very clear. And, you know, perhaps, you know, as one can speculate, I don't know.

SHAPIRO: That's former CIA Director John Brennan speaking there with our co-host Mary Louise Kelly. More of their interview tomorrow when Mary Louise asks Brennan what he hopes to achieve by taking on the president.

BRENNAN: I'm speaking my mind, and I'm giving my views and my editorial opinion just the way the editorial writers in all the major papers and the commentaries that are on your program. Are we all doing Mr. Trump's bidding? No, I think we are speaking out honestly.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAVID HOLMES' "STORY OF THE INK")


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1 trump LU1zK     
n.王牌,法宝;v.打出王牌,吹喇叭
参考例句:
  • He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
  • The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手,作为他的王牌。
2 tack Jq1yb     
n.大头钉;假缝,粗缝
参考例句:
  • He is hammering a tack into the wall to hang a picture.他正往墙上钉一枚平头钉用来挂画。
  • We are going to tack the map on the wall.我们打算把这张地图钉在墙上。
3 prospects fkVzpY     
n.希望,前途(恒为复数)
参考例句:
  • There is a mood of pessimism in the company about future job prospects. 公司中有一种对工作前景悲观的情绪。
  • They are less sanguine about the company's long-term prospects. 他们对公司的远景不那么乐观。
4 byline sSXyQ     
n.署名;v.署名
参考例句:
  • His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
  • We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。
5 forth Hzdz2     
adv.向前;向外,往外
参考例句:
  • The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
  • He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。
6 dismantle Vtlxa     
vt.拆开,拆卸;废除,取消
参考例句:
  • He asked for immediate help from the United States to dismantle the warheads.他请求美国立即提供援助,拆除这批弹头。
  • The mower firmly refused to mow,so I decided to dismantle it.修完后割草机还是纹丝不动,于是,我决定把它拆开。
7 capability JsGzZ     
n.能力;才能;(pl)可发展的能力或特性等
参考例句:
  • She has the capability to become a very fine actress.她有潜力成为杰出演员。
  • Organizing a whole department is beyond his capability.组织整个部门是他能力以外的事。
8 initiate z6hxz     
vt.开始,创始,发动;启蒙,使入门;引入
参考例句:
  • A language teacher should initiate pupils into the elements of grammar.语言老师应该把基本语法教给学生。
  • They wanted to initiate a discussion on economics.他们想启动一次经济学讨论。
9 unwilling CjpwB     
adj.不情愿的
参考例句:
  • The natives were unwilling to be bent by colonial power.土著居民不愿受殖民势力的摆布。
  • His tightfisted employer was unwilling to give him a raise.他那吝啬的雇主不肯给他加薪。
10 confrontation xYHy7     
n.对抗,对峙,冲突
参考例句:
  • We can't risk another confrontation with the union.我们不能冒再次同工会对抗的危险。
  • After years of confrontation,they finally have achieved a modus vivendi.在对抗很长时间后,他们最后达成安宁生存的非正式协议。
11 resolute 2sCyu     
adj.坚决的,果敢的
参考例句:
  • He was resolute in carrying out his plan.他坚决地实行他的计划。
  • The Egyptians offered resolute resistance to the aggressors.埃及人对侵略者作出坚决的反抗。
12 concealing 0522a013e14e769c5852093b349fdc9d     
v.隐藏,隐瞒,遮住( conceal的现在分词 )
参考例句:
  • Despite his outward display of friendliness, I sensed he was concealing something. 尽管他表现得友善,我还是感觉到他有所隐瞒。 来自《简明英汉词典》
  • SHE WAS BREAKING THE COMPACT, AND CONCEALING IT FROM HIM. 她违反了他们之间的约定,还把他蒙在鼓里。 来自英汉文学 - 三万元遗产
13 illicit By8yN     
adj.非法的,禁止的,不正当的
参考例句:
  • He had an illicit association with Jane.他和简曾有过不正当关系。
  • Seizures of illicit drugs have increased by 30% this year.今年违禁药品的扣押增长了30%。
14 folly QgOzL     
n.愚笨,愚蠢,蠢事,蠢行,傻话
参考例句:
  • Learn wisdom by the folly of others.从别人的愚蠢行动中学到智慧。
  • Events proved the folly of such calculations.事情的进展证明了这种估计是愚蠢的。
15 reassure 9TgxW     
v.使放心,使消除疑虑
参考例句:
  • This seemed to reassure him and he continued more confidently.这似乎使他放心一点,于是他更有信心地继续说了下去。
  • The airline tried to reassure the customers that the planes were safe.航空公司尽力让乘客相信飞机是安全的。
16 belying 19283ef2c4752ec020086a52c2052c4f     
v.掩饰,与…不符,使…失望;掩饰( belie的现在分词 );证明(或显示)…为虚假;辜负;就…扯谎
参考例句:
  • Belying its simple graphic design, a T-shirt is now a symbolic medium for designers. 在T恤上面充满简洁的设计,现在已经成为设计师的一个符号化的媒介。 来自互联网
  • Gordon Brown, belying his clunking image, has brought tech-savvy communications staff into Downing Street. 布朗已经把精通技术的通讯工作人员带到的唐宁街。 来自互联网
17 binding 2yEzWb     
有约束力的,有效的,应遵守的
参考例句:
  • The contract was not signed and has no binding force. 合同没有签署因而没有约束力。
  • Both sides have agreed that the arbitration will be binding. 双方都赞同仲裁具有约束力。
18 fawning qt7zLh     
adj.乞怜的,奉承的v.(尤指狗等)跳过来往人身上蹭以示亲热( fawn的现在分词 );巴结;讨好
参考例句:
  • The servant worn a fawning smile. 仆人的脸上露出一种谄笑。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》
  • Then, what submission, what cringing and fawning, what servility, what abject humiliation! 好一个低眉垂首、阿谀逢迎、胁肩谄笑、卑躬屈膝的场面! 来自英汉文学 - 双城记
19 denigration 80d989b824be5b267f4c71c793650bcb     
n.弄黑;诋毁;贬低;抹黑[医] 涂黑,变黑
参考例句:
  • The essence of the denigration of women is our definition as sex object. 诋毁妇女的实质就是视我们为性目标。 来自演讲部分
  • None of you a failure as a denigration of your intellect. 不要觉得失败而诋毁了自己的才华。 来自互联网
20 speculation 9vGwe     
n.思索,沉思;猜测;投机
参考例句:
  • Her mind is occupied with speculation.她的头脑忙于思考。
  • There is widespread speculation that he is going to resign.人们普遍推测他要辞职。
21 civilian uqbzl     
adj.平民的,民用的,民众的
参考例句:
  • There is no reliable information about civilian casualties.关于平民的伤亡还没有确凿的信息。
  • He resigned his commission to take up a civilian job.他辞去军职而从事平民工作。

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