美国国家公共电台 NPR 'SNL' Wasn't A Good Fit For Natasha Rothwell. Now On 'Insecure,' She's Anything But

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SAM SANDERS, HOST:

From NPR, I'm Sam Sanders. IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.

It's Tuesday, and I have a conversation for you. Today, I'm talking with Natasha Rothwell. She joined me at NPR West studios in Culver City. A lot of you know Natasha from her role as Kelli on HBO's "Insecure." This character, Kelli, is, in my opinion, the funniest character on a show full of funny characters. Kelli is this loud and unapologetic and hilarious¹, driven black woman who is part of this friend circle of strong black women trying to make it professionally and personally in LA. And Kelli isn't the lead on the show, but every scene she's in - every scene - she steals the show.

The third season of "Insecure" comes to a close this weekend on HBO, and Natasha and I talk all about the show in our chat. We also talk about how she went from being a writer on "Insecure" to becoming one of the show's stars. We talk about how a character like Kelli, who is outspoken³ to the nth degree - how that character is actually not what Natasha is a lot of the time in her real life. We talk about what it's like to work on a show that is consumed and sometimes torn apart in real time on Twitter on everything from break-ups to make-ups to sex. And we talk about what Natasha did before "Insecure." She taught high school drama, and she got a writing job on "SNL" through a secret black woman-only "SNL" audition⁵.

But we start with me giving her a little bit of grief over rescheduling our interview. Natasha changed our first interview time because she claimed she lost her voice.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SANDERS: It's funny - so when you said that you had to postpone⁶ the, you know, interview because of your voice, I was like, is it really her voice?

NATASHA ROTHWELL: Right (laughter).

SANDERS: Is she playing us? But then I saw your Instagram video...

ROTHWELL: Oh.

SANDERS: And it was for real. We actually have the tape of that.

ROTHWELL: Oh, do you really (laughter)?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

ROTHWELL: Hi, fam.

Oh, my God.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

ROTHWELL: I've lost my voice, and I need you to sound off in the comments on what I can do to get it back.

(Laughter).

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

ROTHWELL: Help.

(Laughter).

SANDERS: That was for real.

ROTHWELL: That was...

SANDERS: Your struggle was real.

ROTHWELL: The struggle could not have been more real. And I was shook. And I'm, like...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: ...A textbook goody-goody.

SANDERS: Oh, really?

ROTHWELL: And, like, I don't like disappointing people - like, on my list of things that bring me great anxiety. So I was - like, it was, like, firing on all cylinders⁷. I was, like, someone on this Instagram give me some witch's brew⁸.

SANDERS: What was the weirdest¹⁰ tip you got?

ROTHWELL: Well, it was weird⁹, but it worked. It was warm pineapple juice with turmeric.

SANDERS: Bleh.

ROTHWELL: Right.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: But it's - it was like - the turmeric has, like, anti-inflammatory qualities...

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: And so that worked.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: And so I was, like, all right.

SANDERS: Hearing you talk about how in real life you don't like to let people down, you were - it seems like you were describing to me someone who is, like me, a little bit underlyingly always kind of anxious about...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...Getting it right.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: And I compare that to your character Kelli on "Insecure."

ROTHWELL: Right.

SANDERS: She gives no F's.

ROTHWELL: No. She cares not.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Is that you at all?

ROTHWELL: I think, like, in the Venn diagram, we overlap¹¹ in - like, I was going to say in a lot of areas but not in a lot of areas...

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: In the area that we both care very deeply, we just express it differently. Like...

SANDERS: Explain.

ROTHWELL: I'm a little bit more anxious about it and, like, cautious...

SANDERS: Yes.

ROTHWELL: ...And I think she's - her caring for Issa and everyone - she's just, like, first thought, right thought.

SANDERS: It's funny hearing you speak of the way that she cares for Issa. One of my favorite scenes between Kelli and Issa's character on the show is when Issa's trying to get a new apartment.

ROTHWELL: Right (laughter).

SANDERS: And your character, in her wonderfully motherly but real talk way, is, like...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: You can't do this, young lady.

ROTHWELL: Right, right, right (laughter).

SANDERS: I think we have that clip prepped, too.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INSECURE")

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli) I'm sorry. There's no way to get around this credit issue unless you get a co-signer - not me - or you could put down three or four months' rent if you've been saving.

ISSA RAE: (As Issa Dee) Ooh, I have been saving.

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli) OK.

RAE: (As Issa Dee, singing) I've been saving, I've been saving, I've been saving.

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli) Hey, hey.

RAE: (As Issa Dee, singing) I've been saving.

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli, singing) She's been saving. She's been saving. Ah, ah - uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh.

RAE: (As Issa Dee) No, you know I eat out a lot.

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli) Oh, girl - Lids?

RAE: (As Issa Dee) I like my caps fitted.

ROTHWELL: (As Kelli) That is just - Radio Shack¹² ain't even a store no more - Rite² Aid? You buying groceries at Rite Aid?

RAE: (As Issa Dee) I buy panties there, too.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: That kind of real talk - like, how often in your life are you delivering that to your friends, to your people, to your family?

ROTHWELL: I think when asked...

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: ...More often than not. I think that Kelli doesn't necessarily need permission (laughter).

SANDERS: At all.

ROTHWELL: At all.

SANDERS: Right.

ROTHWELL: And I think that's why I love playing her is because she's - I feel like with all characters that I approach, like, they exist within me but at a different volume (laughter). So, like, when I step into a role, I'm, like, oh, I need to turn up this aspect of myself or turn this one down to, like, sort of calibrate¹³ how I approach. And I feel like, with her, she lives in me, but the dials are way down...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: ...In a lot of areas. And I feel like, for her, her wanting to help lives in me, but my access or, like, my access point into, like, being helpful is different.

SANDERS: How do you bring Kelli to life? How do you channel that? How do you turn the dials up?

ROTHWELL: There's a permission that I give myself as a performer when I put on a role to just check my inner critic and, like, to be able to really say yes to everything that's in the script and embrace it as my own...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Which is why I love performing. I think that's why I was drawn¹⁵ to it when I was younger...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Is just to be - it gives me permission to do, say, think and be things that I wouldn't ordinarily.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so, in writing the scripts and, like, working on the show and in developing her in real time, it's just understanding that I don't have to be so cautious.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so it's just checking that sort of...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Like, self-consciousness in the dressing¹⁶ room.

SANDERS: Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting to see her character, Kelli, because, like, on this show called "Insecure," she is incredibly so secure...

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: ...Which is beautiful.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: And, I mean, you've actually spoken about this before quite poignantly¹⁷. Your interview - was it with pridesource.com a while back? I love this quote. You said, until I got into my 30s, I felt like I was apologizing for being a woman, for being black. The beauty of playing Kelli is I get to have a character match how I feel, and I get to play a woman who's never known any different.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: That must be so freeing.

ROTHWELL: It's unreal. And it's...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: And I also think that just, like, as a woman of color...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Watching TV, I - not that every character or - I saw was apologizing for it but was aware of it. And that to me is the beauty of Kelli. She has known no different.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: She knows that freedom of self-possession that, like, I dream of. And so...

SANDERS: Yeah. She's as free as a wealthy white man.

ROTHWELL: Yes. Yes.

SANDERS: Like, she is just...

ROTHWELL: Yes. And in her - she would say she's as free as a black woman. You know what I mean?

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Like, she doesn't even have that...

SANDERS: There's no difference.

ROTHWELL: There's no difference. And so for her, that kind of, like, bald, like, approach to life - it's exhilarating to play.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And for me it's just - like, what I do find funny is that, like, in real life, people think that's (laughter) me.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so they, like, come up to me, and they expect - and I'm just so - more reserved and more aware of it than she is. So...

SANDERS: Yeah. We've got to talk about how you came to portray¹⁸ Kelli on the show because when you started with "Insecure," you were a writer.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: So how'd that happen?

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: Won't he do it?

SANDERS: Yes, he will (laughter).

ROTHWELL: I mean, I was hired to write on the show, and I was so excited to do it. And really it was my first sort of narrative¹⁹ scripted show. And...

SANDERS: What kind of work were you doing before?

ROTHWELL: I was writing for "Saturday Night Live," and then I wrote for my Netflix special. And right as I was in post for my Netflix special is when I got this job opportunity. And so I went in with blinders. I was, like, I want to be good at this. I want to...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Learn as much as I can and not present as someone who was gifted an opportunity but earned it. And so I was in the room writing and, like, really trying to, like, pitch my [expletive] off...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...And like be considered as sort of, like, a clutch person in the writers' room that can be really helpful. And about two months into the writers' room, Issa called me into her office.

SANDERS: Two months in.

ROTHWELL: About two months.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: I want to say we had maybe two or three scripts in the bag. Kelli had already been created. And I think I don't come in until Episode 2.

SANDERS: Who created Kelli?

ROTHWELL: Ben Dougan...

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: ...Who's a writer on the show, pitched a wild friend when we were, you know, thinking about how to expand her social circle.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And we do internal table reads. So like...

SANDERS: OK, so writers will read.

ROTHWELL: The writers will read. And this is before we do the proper table read where, you know, HBO execs come through and we, you know, have the actors read for them. And I kept reading Kelli at the table read, which was fun to do. And they knew I was performing because I was in post for my Netflix special, so I was...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Like, juggling²⁰.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so when I was called into the office, I was, like, am I in trouble? Like, what is going on?

SANDERS: Also, there was, like, a Nerf subplot.

ROTHWELL: Oh, yeah. So the...

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: We were in the middle of a Nerf war in which - so, like, when we tackle scripts in the writers' room, there's I think about 12 of us. And so we split into sort of two groups to - like, one will be working on Episode 2, one will be working on three. We're breaking story and writing the script. And those turned into factions²¹...

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: ...Warring factions when equipped with Nerf guns.

SANDERS: I love it.

ROTHWELL: And so I think the week prior the other room, like, brought in, like, a Beats Pill and, like, was playing opera music as they attacked...

SANDERS: Stop.

ROTHWELL: So it was very...

SANDERS: Cinematic.

ROTHWELL: Yes. And so when I came in, I was, like, OK, should I bring my gun (laughter)? Like...

SANDERS: Into Issa's office.

ROTHWELL: Yes. So - when I was called because I was just, like, we have talked about taking someone hostage, and I was, like...

SANDERS: In the Nerf war.

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: It's very - like, it was war games.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: So I was, like, are they calling me in here to, like, you know, as a point - act of war?

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: And they looked weird. They're like, no, calm down. Put your Nerf gun down. I was, like, all right.

SANDERS: You came in there with your Nerf gun.

ROTHWELL: I remember it was smaller. It wasn't that big because we had, like, smaller ones, too.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: But, yeah, they were just, like, you know, we would love for you to play Kelli. And I cried instantly...

SANDERS: Wow.

ROTHWELL: ...Because it was the thing that I didn't allow myself to want because I was just, like, I want to do the one thing that I was asked to do well and, like, exceed at that. And so I didn't even entertain that I would be a part of the show, let alone asked to do it and not have to audition. So...

SANDERS: It's funny hearing you say that because Kelli - I feel like Kelli would have walked in there Day 1 being, like, y'all know at some point I'm acting²² in the show.

ROTHWELL: (Laughter) No.

SANDERS: Just so y'all know.

ROTHWELL: Just the - hits the differences between us (laughter).

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: Yeah. Yeah.

SANDERS: One of the things I'm sure you've noticed about the show and probably think about a lot is that everything every character does is dissected²³ by black Twitter and all of Twitter.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: And there are some times where these characters who are meant to be flawed are torn apart for doing things that flawed people do (laughter).

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: How does that feel? I'm thinking about the episode about oral sex. I'm thinking about...

ROTHWELL: Oh.

SANDERS: ...Other stuff like...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Y'all get it.

ROTHWELL: We get it. And we hear it.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: I think that it's what happens when there's not enough representation because it's a story, not all stories. And so when...

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: ...People see the show, they're, like, well, I don't see my specific experience reflected in this specific storyline.

SANDERS: So it's wrong.

ROTHWELL: So it's wrong. And for me, I can hear that, and my answer to that has always been and will continue to be, please tell your story. Like, I feel like I want to hear your nuanced take on contraception, blowjobs, all of it - dating, blah, blah blah. Like...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Like, the whole laundry list of things that we have seen - cis white men, their whole rainbow of story being told, the nuanced stories that we've seen from a very homogenous²⁵ group.

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: Here's an opportunity for us as marginalized individuals, especially with as many platforms that are out now, for you to tell your story. So my hope is that as provocative²⁶ as the show is to black Twitter and to all Twitter, that we are provoking some future creators to put their story down so we can hear that nuanced take.

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: Because I'm interested.

SANDERS: I want to see it.

ROTHWELL: And I'm on the show, and my story is not always on there. You know what I mean?

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: And we have a writers' room full - that's one of the things that I love about the show, is we have such a diverse writers' room. And we have more than just one black person. We have more than just one black woman. And so to sit around with a bunch of black women, various sexualities, various ages, various races - and we're approaching a topic, it gets heated because we're just, like, that's not my truth. That's not my truth. Right?

SANDERS: Exactly. Exactly.

ROTHWELL: So because we have a diverse writers' room, we can tell a diverse story. But it's not everyone's (laughter).

SANDERS: It's not - yeah. And, like...

ROTHWELL: It's not everyone's.

SANDERS: I mean, like, I'll watch it as a black guy who lives in LA now. I'm from Texas, and I am Texas black. And that is different than LA black.

ROTHWELL: That is very different from LA black.

SANDERS: The words are different.

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: The mannerisms are different. I would never wear all those loud colors.

ROTHWELL: Uh-uh.

SANDERS: But, like, it's...

ROTHWELL: Sweaters in...

SANDERS: It's different.

ROTHWELL: ...The summer, yeah.

SANDERS: I don't know. It's crazy.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: And so, like, you just have to say, like, that is just as black as my black. It's just different.

ROTHWELL: It's just different. And it's very freeing when you can see it from that vantage point.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And it's just like, oh, I can connect to stories of love and loss and belonging. It doesn't have to be dressed as I'm dressed. You know what I mean?

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: I can connect to that.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: So...

SANDERS: And it's, like - one of the things that I love about this, like, new renaissance²⁷ of black TV is that, like, you look at shows like "Black-ish," most of the audience is white.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: It is exciting to see white viewers...

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: ...Understand that they can see a universal humanity in our stories, too.

ROTHWELL: Yeah. I mean, I watched "Seinfeld." Like, that was my life.

SANDERS: Yeah (laughter).

ROTHWELL: Like, I was just, like, oh, my God.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: This is me. I watch "Friends," and I'm, like, I get it.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: So I spent my childhood watching shows filled with stories and people who didn't look like me exactly, but they told specific stories about humanity that I was able to connect to.

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: And I feel like that is the get for a lot of people who don't look like "Insecure" who stand for "Insecure..."

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: ...Because they're just - like, you're telling a very specific story about love, loss, relationships and belonging, and I connect to that.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: So I can watch the show.

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: And my (laughter) response to that is just, like, of course you can watch this show.

SANDERS: We're all human.

ROTHWELL: We're all humans.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: Surprise.

SANDERS: Really.

ROTHWELL: And I think that's, like, the gag of the show, is just, like, surprise, we're normal.

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: Like, watch us, you know?

SANDERS: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. When was the first time you as a kid growing up watching TV and movies said, oh, my God, I see someone who looks like me?

ROTHWELL: Nell Carter.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: Yeah. "Gimme A Break!"

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Tell me what you liked about her.

ROTHWELL: She was irreverent and subversive²⁸. I feel like so many versions of, like, playing the help on the show I'd seen - you know, I'd seen that. But to see her talk back to someone who is white...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...And have, like - and to be right...

SANDERS: Yeah (laughter).

ROTHWELL: ...And be apologized to...

SANDERS: Yeah, and win.

ROTHWELL: ...And, like, to be - and win.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: To me, I was, like, OK. Like, I see that. But...

SANDERS: And she could sing.

ROTHWELL: And she could sing.

SANDERS: (Laughter) Like, come on.

ROTHWELL: But just her fearlessness and her range - I just remember watching "Gimme A Break!," and she would have me, like, you know, aww-ing (ph) along with the - like, the soundtrack, the - you know the laugh track where the audience aww-ed (ph)? I'd be, like...

SANDERS: You're, like...

ROTHWELL: Aww. And then I'd be laughing. And so her comedic range - something that really spoke⁴ to me.

SANDERS: All right, time for a break. When we come back, Natasha's old life as a high school drama teacher in the Bronx and how she left that behind. BRB.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SANDERS: All right, dear listener, before we get back to the show, I want to ask you a favor. If you're enjoying this conversation and you are in the Southern California area - LA, Pasadena, et cetera - I want you to come see us do it live. I think you'd enjoy it. Tuesday night, October 2, I will be in partnership²⁹ with NPR member station KPCC in Pasadena talking onstage with comedian³⁰ Guy Branum. He is one of the funniest people alive. I mean it. Don't miss out. It'll be a good time. There'll be laughs, and drinks, too. You can get tickets and info at kpcc.org/inperson - kpcc.org/inperson. That link is also in our episode data, too. All right, back to the show.

So where are you from?

ROTHWELL: Everywhere. My dad was in the Air Force, and so I'm a military brat¹⁴, moved around a ton. But mostly - I feel like - if you - wherever you go to prom is, like, where you're from.

SANDERS: That's just - yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: Like - for me, that was Maryland, southern Maryland in Waldorf.

SANDERS: Please tell me you have prom photos.

ROTHWELL: Oh, I do.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: I do. And so I went to two high schools. My first high school was in Florida, but I graduated from and went to prom in Maryland. And then I ended up going to University of Maryland.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: So that feels home-like.

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROTHWELL: But I don't have any family that's there still. My folks - born and raised in Philly, and so they've retired³¹ to south Jersey³² right outside of Philly.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: So that's where, like, you know, Christmas and Thanksgiving is.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: What kind of kid were you? I'm guessing you weren't a Kelli.

ROTHWELL: No.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: No. I was just - I was the straight-A sort of, like, student with talks too much on her report card. I was very chatty. I had a lot of questions, very inquisitive³³. My mom used to have to come up to school and talk to teachers a lot because I would say - I would just ask why. And they would just - like, well, because I said so. I'm, like, but why are you saying so?

SANDERS: Good thing you're not a journalist.

ROTHWELL: I know (Laughter). I wouldn't give up. And I broke I think a few teachers...

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: ...With my questions. But - yeah. And I was always funny. I - like, making people laugh was something I always did. Like, I would - we would play, like, make me laugh with my - I have two sisters and a brother. And so when you move around a lot, sometimes the first couple of months you're in a new city, you're each other's friends...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Whether you, like, like your siblings³⁴ at the time or not. And we would, you know, sit someone down in a chair and try to break them comedically. And so...

SANDERS: Really?

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: How would you break your siblings? Was there, like, one that you knew would always do it?

ROTHWELL: There wasn't one thing. I think the thing that I love to this day is just committing a thousand percent to, like, a joke or a decision. And I think that always got them because they would have a line of comfortability. And I was, like, I will go up to that line, past that line.

SANDERS: Wham.

ROTHWELL: I was, like, I'm going commit.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so it would be a lot of silly stuff like that.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: But...

SANDERS: How - did you study in college writing drama? What did you do?

ROTHWELL: I went to two colleges. My first college was Ithaca College. I was a journalism³⁵ major.

SANDERS: Oh.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Could have joined the crowd.

ROTHWELL: I could have joined the crowd. My biggest issue was the rigidity³⁶ (laughter) of journalism where it's just, like, you have to tell a very specific story.

SANDERS: You've got to tell someone else's story.

ROTHWELL: Someone else's story.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And for me that was creatively frustrating³⁷. And so I transferred to University of Maryland, where I majored in theater performance.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Theater performance. And then - OK, if - you taught drama for a while.

ROTHWELL: I did.

SANDERS: I love it - at a KIPP school.

ROTHWELL: I - yes.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: Are you familiar?

SANDERS: I know - so I went to a public policy school, and a bunch of my classmates are doing stuff with KIPP now.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: It seems like it is - everyone that I know who's a part of KIPP - like, they are so devoted³⁸ and committed to the idea of it.

ROTHWELL: Yeah. It's a very...

SANDERS: We should say what KIPP is I guess for those who don't know about it.

ROTHWELL: Yeah, yeah. It's the - KIPP stands for Knowledge Is Power Program. And it's the idea that students from areas that are underserved deserve quality education. And it was - I had always done, like, teaching artist stuff. Like, when you're on the grind with the theater - when you graduate with a theater degree, you have to eat...

SANDERS: You - yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...And pay your bills.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: And for me, I was just, like - well, proximity³⁹ to my craft was, like, my focus. I was...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Just, like - I mean, I think there's incredible, like, nobility in waiting tables and doing the sort of, you know, cliched...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Artist hustle⁴⁰.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: I just know I would be terrible at it.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: So I was, like, I need to, like, find employment that, like, would be sustainable. And I knew I loved theater enough to want to teach it. And so I was in Japan. I lived there for a year.

SANDERS: Doing what?

ROTHWELL: I was performing at the Tokyo Comedy Store and teaching English. And so...

SANDERS: I want to read that book.

ROTHWELL: I know.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: It's - black in Japan. It's a - I'm working on a pilot, so...

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: Yes.

ROTHWELL: It's very - it was wild being there. But while I was there, my sister messaged me. She knew it was operation New York. I wanted to get there by way of. And she was, like, you know, there's a KIPP school that my friend is opening up, and they need a theater teacher.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so I got hired. And so I was able to teach, you know, from 7 a.m. to, like, 2, 3. And then I would do the - you know, play rehearsal⁴¹ or, like...

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: ...The - you know, whatever the after-school thing is. And then I would go to UCB. And I would do comedy from - you know, either be in a class or be teaching a class later on in my career at UCB. And then by the end, it would be, like, running off to do a show. So it was like - it was a true New York hustle of just, like, doing that for four years.

SANDERS: And how old were the kids?

ROTHWELL: It was high school, high school theater in the Bronx...

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: ...For four years.

SANDERS: All of your life needs to be several movies.

ROTHWELL: (Laughter) It was very challenging in all the right ways. And it - like, the most cliched thing I could say at this moment is, you know, they taught me more than I taught them. But it's just true.

SANDERS: Aww.

ROTHWELL: Right?

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: It's just true. It's cliched because it's real. And so they forced me to articulate sort of my passion. And it was one of the things - like, in my third year there, I was talking to, like, my students and, you know, telling them how important it was to follow your passion and not to get deterred⁴². And there I was, like, in a classroom in a city that I went to specifically to manifest my dreams and my passion.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so that contradiction was a real catalyst⁴³ to be, like, OK - I need to really figure out my new hustle.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: Like, what does it look like for me to do this full time? And so I strategized about sort of going part-time at KIPP my last year there and then was able to transition out, yeah.

SANDERS: Do they watch "Insecure," your kids?

ROTHWELL: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: It's an adult-themed show.

ROTHWELL: It is. And I've gotten messages from, like, yo, miss, I saw you on that show doing dirty.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: And I was just, like, OK. You cannot...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: You cannot message me on social media.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: Don't do it. Don't do it.

ROTHWELL: Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. But it's lovely because I feel like the best lesson I taught them - or could teach them on passion and following your dreams is to do what I'm doing now.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Yeah. And I mean, so like, you leave that probably very safe space. And then you're, you know, back trying to make it, trying to make it, trying to make it. And then all of - I mean, not all the sudden - I'm sure it took years. But like...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...You end up being one of the success stories out of the weird, strange "SNL" race debacle.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: How do we set this up? So there had been critique - and there's always been critique about...

ROTHWELL: Always.

SANDERS: ...The racial makeup⁴⁴ of that show. But it reached such a fever pitch that, a few years ago, Lorne Michaels, the head of the show, had, like, a secret black lady audition.

ROTHWELL: Uh-huh (laughter).

SANDERS: How - what...

ROTHWELL: (Laughter).

SANDERS: ...I just - so I talked to Sasheer Zamata a while back about her experience at that audition.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: And I'm still, like, that must have been the craziest thing.

ROTHWELL: Well, here's the thing.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: For me, doing comedy in New York - for most people who do comedy in New York...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...I'll speak generally...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...They have sort of their crosshairs set on being on "SNL."

SANDERS: That is the holy grail.

ROTHWELL: That's the holy grail. That was not my case because of said...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Issues with their casting.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: I had not seen myself reflected in the cast - or someone who looked like me...

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: ...On the cast. I'll rephrase that. And so...

SANDERS: Because - like, in thinking of black women, Maya Rudolph...

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: ...Another black woman from way back in the day...

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: But there was, like, two.

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so, for me, I was just, like, you know, I don't want to feel like running my head against a wall that I knew that was sort of impenetrable. And so while I was on that grind...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...I was contacted by the artistic⁴⁵ director at the time at the Peoples Improv Theater - and said, listen. "SNL" reached out to me. They're doing this audition. And they asked me who I think should be a part of it. And I said you. And I was, like, OK.

SANDERS: Did it feel weird?

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: For some reason, it's like, this is the Underground Railroad audition. What in the world?

ROTHWELL: Yeah, I didn't - to be honest, like, me being completely wide-eyed and naive⁴⁶, I showed up and I thought it was just going to be a multicultural⁴⁷, like...

SANDERS: Oh.

ROTHWELL: I didn't know it was just, like, black women until I'm...

SANDERS: When did it click?

ROTHWELL: ...Backstage. I was backstage. I was, like, what kind of utopia is this?

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: I was, like, this is heaven. I remember we took a picture, which, like, got leaked somehow.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And I was just, like, this - I'd never - all of us talked about how we were always the only one.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: You know, like...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: When we're on our Harold teams or if we're showing up for different things up until that point, there'd be a black person...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...Maybe a black woman, not a room full of talented, funny black women.

SANDERS: Yeah. Well - and then they bring you together...

ROTHWELL: And they'd bring us together.

SANDERS: ...To kiki (ph)...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...But now you've got to compete...

ROTHWELL: Yeah. Like, to the death. Right?

SANDERS: ...In the comedy "Hunger Games."

ROTHWELL: In the comedy "Hunger Games." But I - when I - here's the thing (laughter). Like, I want - I, like, a thousand percent, like, was at the point when someone's just, like, here's a party that you definitely weren't going to be invited to. But now you have a special invitation. You dress up. Like, you get dressed.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: You, like, get ready.

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: So I was, like, OK. I'm going to really try to go after this. But I remember seeing everyone backstage. And I hit a point emotionally where I was just like, I don't think I'm what they're looking for - and not for my ability. But they classically cast people who look like the imitations, like the impersonations that they'll do.

SANDERS: Oh.

ROTHWELL: And at the time, they were looking for a Michelle Obama. And I was, like, that ain't me. But you know what I am? I'm funny.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And so I was, like, I'm going to write and perform something that I think is very funny and that makes me laugh.

SANDERS: What'd you perform?

ROTHWELL: I did impressions of Oprah, Maya Angelou. I did Kenan. Kenan was in the audience, and so I did a Kenan.

SANDERS: You did Kenan?

ROTHWELL: I did Kenan.

SANDERS: Can you do a little bit of Kenan?

ROTHWELL: It was completely silent. It was just me doing all of his looks...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: ...Which are just, like...

SANDERS: Yes.

ROTHWELL: Because he does a lot of wide eyes...

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...To the camera.

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: So I just announced that, you know, I'm doing Kenan. And it was just...

SANDERS: I love it.

ROTHWELL: It was just a lot of, like, side looks. And...

SANDERS: (Laughter) I love it.

ROTHWELL: And I had such - I felt in that moment, like, a fearlessness with the audition because I was, like, I've got nothing to lose. And I had a great audition. I felt really good about it. And that's what I want to have happen. And, like, everything else that happened after that was all a shock and awe²⁴ campaign. Like, I had no idea...

SANDERS: 'Cause then they came to you and said, you should write for us.

ROTHWELL: Yeah. They reached out to my manager at the time and they - well, now she's still my manager. I love her to death, and that was that.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: She said that they contacted her and were just like, it was one of the best-written auditions⁴⁸ we'd seen, and would you come in for a meeting to write for the show? And it was - I remember getting the call for that, and it was a long time.

SANDERS: Oh, really?

ROTHWELL: It was a time enough for me to sort of grieve not getting it. Then that popped up again, so it was just a very - it was a back and forth⁴⁹ of just like, you know, the hot guy wants you. He don't want you. He called. You know, it was just like...

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah.

ROTHWELL: You know, I don't want to mess with him.

SANDERS: And you were like, I already blocked his number.

ROTHWELL: I blocked his number. Who's this? And then you're just like, OK. Let me, you know, put on some makeup and see what he want. So...

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: It was definitely that going in to meet with the head writers and, you know, ultimately write for the show.

SANDERS: Yeah.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SANDERS: One more quick break here. When we come back, more on "SNL." The show's new season premieres this weekend, and the show this season will feature a new, black, female cast member named Ego⁵⁰ Nwodim. Natasha is an alum of that show as a writer, and she has some bigger thoughts on the show's larger diversity issues. All right. Back in a minute.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SANDERS: I have interviewed now - you're my third interview with someone who used to be on that show. I talked to Taran Killam...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...Sasheer, who was just delightful⁵¹. I got the feeling from both of them that their relationship with that show, even after being off it for a while, is conflicted. Was it a good experience for you? I wonder about what it's like to be there from what I've talked to folks about.

ROTHWELL: It's not easy. It's not easy. I'm appreciative⁵² of the time I, like, had there.

SANDERS: Yeah. How many years were you there?

ROTHWELL: I was just there for one year.

SANDERS: OK.

ROTHWELL: It was Season 40, which was a wild time to be there.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: And I don't think it's meant to be easy (laughter).

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah.

ROTHWELL: I also think that being in a 40-year-old institution that is predominantly white...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...As a woman of color...

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...It's a different journey. And I'm not trying to sugarcoat it or whatever.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: It's just - it's sort of, at this point, my process with having been on the show and now sort of having hindsight, it's really sort of matter of fact where I learned a ton. I learned a ton. I was, like, working alongside amazing, smart, funny people in an environment that wasn't for me. Like, some people thrive there.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: You know, so it's like no shade, but it just - like, it wasn't for me. But at the time, I wanted - it's like you want the glass shoe to fit so badly and you're bending your foot and you're trying to figure out how to fit in because you want it to be you.

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: You want them to want you as much as you want them.

SANDERS: But you should never break your foot.

ROTHWELL: It shouldn't break your foot. Find something that fits. Find a nice, you know, easy shoe (laughter).

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: Something where it's just - you know, there's a comfort level there. And so...

SANDERS: Get you some Naturalizer flip-flops.

ROTHWELL: Yeah, that's right. Get some like, you know, little, low wedges...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

ROTHWELL: ...Nothing crazy. Yeah.

SANDERS: But this is the challenge, I think, with these legacy⁵³ institutions that are being forced to acknowledge diversity. When they try to change things up, they have to acknowledge that some of the very structures they've built...

ROTHWELL: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...Are inherently not conducive⁵⁴ to a person from X, Y, Z background succeeding.

ROTHWELL: Right, right, right, right.

SANDERS: And they don't see that. You can't just paint by numbers and put new people and new faces in the places that they had never been before and say, you should have the same thing that these folks before had...

ROTHWELL: Right.

SANDERS: ...Because well - just do it right.

ROTHWELL: Right.

SANDERS: It's different.

ROTHWELL: It's graduating from tokenism to inclusion and to understanding diversity and the true meaning of it, which is not we got one.

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: Do you know what I mean? And I think that the biggest thing that it did for me was give me confidence in my voice because I think my first couple of months there, I was desperately⁵⁵ trying to be what I thought they wanted. And then I realized me being myself in that audition at the Peoples Improv Theater where I just gave zero [expletive]...

SANDERS: Yeah.

ROTHWELL: ...That's what they wanted.

SANDERS: Exactly.

ROTHWELL: And so I sort of did that to myself, this sort of, like, trying to - again, I told you I was a people pleaser by nature.

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah.

ROTHWELL: I was, like, not wanting to disappoint, so my focus going into it was just like, how do I get them to like me and not accept that I was already at the table and not continue to audition two months into writing for the show? If that makes sense.

SANDERS: Exactly. If you were - you've been a teacher.

ROTHWELL: I know. Yes.

SANDERS: If you had to give - yes. If you had to give "SNL" a grade on how they're dealing⁵⁶ with diversity, what would it be right now? They just announced the new cast for next season.

ROTHWELL: Yes, Ego.

SANDERS: Yes. She's going to be a black woman onscreen...

ROTHWELL: Bowen Yang, yeah.

SANDERS: ...Which is great. But, like, where do you think, scorewise, gradewise, "SNL" is doing right now on diversity issues?

ROTHWELL: I feel like grading them means that they - you know, they've turned in a complete assignment. And I feel like they're - it's a constantly moving, growing machine. I do think that they are aware. They are very hyper-aware.

SANDERS: Well, Twitter has made them aware.

ROTHWELL: Twitter has made them aware.

SANDERS: There would be no Underground Railroad audition without Black Twitter.

ROTHWELL: No. Without - right. And without the response to that being, you know, Kenan saying, you know, I'm not going to dress up as a woman anymore, right? So I think that they're answering the call. But I think the true evidence of diversity on that show will be longevity⁵⁷ of marginalized groups behind the camera and in front of the camera.

SANDERS: You know, you talk a lot about being on screen and seeing people like you on screen and knowing that there is a journey for representation. And it's a thing you take seriously. So I wondered, in prepping for this interview, like, if you could have any projects or any role - no budget limit, you get whatever you want - what is the role that you're dying to play as you?

ROTHWELL: Wait. What do you mean? Like the...

SANDERS: I mean, like - like...

ROTHWELL: Like, if there's like a movie that already exists or the kind of movie?

SANDERS: Kind of movie, kind of role - like, in thinking about, like, having - wanting to see you on screen as a kid and even now.

ROTHWELL: Yeah, yeah.

SANDERS: What role do you want to see you in still?

ROTHWELL: Still? A rom-com - and it seems so basic. But I watch a ton of them - watched, past-tense and currently watch.

SANDERS: You've been in some.

ROTHWELL: And I say this - there are obviously, you know, films that explore black love. But a mainstream⁵⁸, like, rom-com that gives me the feels that I felt when I watched, you know - God - "Bridget Jones," like, you know, "You've Got Mail," "Sleepless⁵⁹ in Seattle," you know, like "It's Complicated." We're watching all of these - sort of like the Nora Ephron canon of...

SANDERS: Yeah, the kitchen porn.

ROTHWELL: Yes. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: I want, you know, cabinets and, you know, crown molding...

SANDERS: Yes, yes. And the center island that's as big as New Jersey.

ROTHWELL: Yes. And, you know, the kitchen, the farmhouse⁶⁰ sink - that kind of story where the protagonist⁶¹ is a plus-sized woman of color, and those things aren't central plot points (laughter). Right?

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah.

ROTHWELL: So like, I think that like - again, the Kelly of it, of just not apologizing for any otherness. I don't know if I've seen a rom-com not apologize for it. There's the like, I love you even though.

SANDERS: And so much of the basic structure of rom-coms is that women have to apologize for themselves to get the man.

ROTHWELL: Yes. There's just like, you know, what I was wrong about me. You know what? But, you know, let's work on this together. Thank you for teaching me. So yeah, I think that, like, I love love. And I love the idea of - I would love to, like, star in a like word-for-word remake of "When Harry⁶² Met Sally" and just cast it different.

SANDERS: Yeah. Who is your male lead?

ROTHWELL: Oh, I don't even know. That's how - like, I'm just like - I truly have no idea. But I'm just like that, for me, is like one of the best. Not even for me, it's the best romantic comedy. I watch it all the time. And it's not even just like - it's just a really well-written movie. And so I was just like what if that - like, that's, like, would be a joy to see.

SANDERS: I want to see you in "My Best Friend's Wedding."

ROTHWELL: Yes.

SANDERS: I actually want to see you in it.

ROTHWELL: Oh, my God. Yes. I wasn't even thinking.

(LAUGHTER)

ROTHWELL: I love that movie, that soundtrack.

SANDERS: That movie's so good - yes, yes.

ROTHWELL: That soundtrack is bomb. I was listening to it yesterday on Spotify. Check it out. It's good.

SANDERS: All right. I have asked you all questions I have for you. I am so happy this happened.

ROTHWELL: Me too.

SANDERS: I'm happy your voice picked up.

ROTHWELL: I'm here, yes.

SANDERS: You're here. It's great. Thank you so much.

ROTHWELL: Thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SANDERS: Many thanks again to Natasha Rothwell. You can catch the finale of "Insecure" season three on HBO this coming Sunday night. We're back on Friday with our regular weekly wrap. Again, for those in SoCal, come hang at this live show with me next week in Pasadena - nprpresents.org. You'll also find that link in the episode data for this episode.

And as a little treat, dear listeners, we're going to end this episode with a song that Natasha Rothwell made for her episode of a Netflix series called "The Characters." This song, maybe don't crank it up all the way at work. But it's all about being a little bit basic. And honestly, it speaks to me on so many levels. All right, we are back Friday. Until then, thanks for listening. Talk soon.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BASIC B****")

ROTHWELL: (Rapping) Basic, basic - you calling me basic? Oh, you have no idea. That's right. I'm a basic bitch. Forever 21 got me looking rich. Nicholas Sparks is my favorite author. I drink diet coke like its goddamn water. I wear yoga pants every day of the week. I got heels in my purse and Toms on my feet. No clean underwear, yo, that's no problem. I'm just going to wear my bikini bottoms. I'm a basic, basic, basic bitch. I never leave home without my selfie stick. I'm a basic, basic, basic [expletive]. If this is karaoke, I'm singing Taylor Swift.